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Posted by LSW at Apr 19, 2005 7:32:43 AM

CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [10/030/08]
Typical CMSs have been notoriously not Accessible. This has changed a bit, so here I will be posting some of the more accessible versions of CMSs.

This list will therefore be growing so keep an eye on it.

What is a CMS for? Well anyone can use them, but they are meant for larger complicated sites, or sites with many people accessing them. Say a organization with many offices or departments and each group has their own information areas they update. But also if your customer wishes to care for the site themselves. You spend allot of time making the site accessible and error free, then your customer messes it up some how, then visitors think you messed it up.

Best is to create the site from the ground up within the CMS. However in some you can insert sections of your already made site as well, but that is more troublesome. Another advantage is extensions like search scripts, calendars, guest books etc. that you can add more easily.

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Free (mostly GNU license)

Typo3 - This is a German CMS, but the main language is English and it supports over 20 languages in the Back end. It is GNU and based on PHP. It is a highend professional CMS with a steep learning curve, but it also has a large support community and lots of good extensions to it. It sells itself as accessible and is one of two CMS suggested by a German Accessibility group.

[Comments: I spent over a week on this system. It has a steep learning curve. It also uses it's own language which you need to learn to really work with it. In the end it is to complicated for the simple sites I needed a CMS for. It seems to be a good corporate CMS, but be prepared to learn for quite a while first.]
Papoo - Another German CMS (supports English as well) claiming accessibility. This one is rather new so the support community and extensions are not so large yet. The back end is much more simplified and better for private sites and I will be using this one next.

[Comments: This has a very simple background and is easy enough to set up and the back end is simple. However you really need to use a variation on the Papoo design, I was not able to easily carry my design over into the script so I dropped it as a possibility for my projects.]
Plone - this is the second CMS suggested by the German Accessibility group. It is powerful and easily extended to meet your needs. One possible drawback is that it is based on Python which is not as widely supported, so be sure your server supports Python first.

[Comments: I never really worked with Plone so not much to say. I installed it while not really looking for one. It took over my server so I removed it again. It's use of Python may hold it back as few people really know the language.]

[Comments from Stefan: I don't think Plone would be a good choice for most (though it is powerful,) because it requires massive server resources that most people simply don't have. This is direct from the Plone website:]
Plone is much heavier on RAM and CPU usage than your run-off-the-mill web system. It's built to do a lot of different things, and should preferably be hosted on a dedicated server if possible.

The most important consideration when building a Plone server is to have enough RAM. To take plone.org as an example, it uses about 500-700MB of RAM fully cached. It is a very busy site, though - so you will get by with less, normally. For basic usage, you can get away with about 100MB RAM usage. You should have at least 512MB RAM

[Comments: Considering that standard hosting plans give you between 64 to 128 megs of ram - Plone simply doesn't fit.]
PHP CMS - This is another German system (in English) I am looking at now. Sounds good, but am having a devil of a time with the installation. Sites made with it have tested well for accessibility by a leading German organization (of course a web sites accessibility still depends on the designer)

[Comments: I never even got this running right on my local server, then when taking a break and trying to blend the template into the frame work..... I gave up. What goes where is not clear to see at all. It may be easier if you have experience with SmartyTemplate which it uses.]
CMSimple - this came into a quick consideration as a tool but we never followed up on it, not fitted for our project, but may still be good for you.
Textpattern - this was brought up in another forum when discussing CMSs and the poster claimed it is accessible, glancing around the web site it does claim to be standards compliant, I did not specifically see a claim for accessibility, but that does not mean that it is not. It does look interesting and maybe of interest to some of you. It also comes in multiple languages and is said to have a good community behind it, but the documentation is said to leave something to be desired.
Joomla! - [Edit: It would seem that Joomla! has once again began working on accessibility and the member quoted before is once more involved with the development.]
MKDoc - this one doesn't really even claim to be a CMS, but does much the same. I have no experience with it.
- Easily manage and deploy content on the internet.
- Create and manage online communities around your website.
- Publish materials in multiple languages.
- Comply with e-gif / section 508 accessibility standards.
CMS Made Simple - This is a new one to me. I was suggested in a forum and a member I respect said it looks good but was not fitting his project. It is not claiming to be accessible but would seem to be easily modified. I hope to check it out in the near future.
Umbraco - This is an open source ASP.NET based CMS with good references for it's accessibility. Once again it seems to be the Europeans leading the way as this is one of the few CMS not based on PHP and is from Denmark.

[Comments: No experience with this system]

Shareware

QnECMS - This one does cost money. This is a development of GAWDs (Guild of Accessible Web Designers). This would be my No. 1 choice if not for the English Back end.

[Comments: This is the CMS I have settled for. It uses no Back end, the administration links are hidden and appear at the bottom of the site after you sign in. It is built in the style of a Blog. All articles and pages you create can be set to allow comments by the user, your choice. Plugins include a newsletter and a Pole. It has a built in RSS feed, all your newest postings to your site are automatically fed into the RSS and your subscribers can follow what has changed. Anyone can join your site and depending on how you set it up create their own pages that naturally will only be posted after you OK them.

What I had not managed in any other CMS, I carried my template into this CMS in one day and was able to keep the design exactly as I wanted it. You simply copy and paste your HTML sections into a template and upload your CSS. It is not cheap, but the price is in my mind worth it. You can purchase a multiple license, then sell as many as you like or simply build it into your future projects and add it to the project cost, after say a half dozen uses, you have recovered the cost. There is a Demo available at the web site and I will likely allow a Demo from my DarkShadow-Designs when it is finished so you can see how I modified the CMS and blended my Template into it. The multilingual support is being developed and I am doing the German Translation which will be the first offered.]
LiveStoryBoard - Subscription. Claims to be Standards compliant. No experience with it, but it is in my Bookmarks so someone must have suggested it to me at some point.

[Comments: No experience with this system]
Libertas-Systems - Offers a CMS, they are members of the Accessify Forum and I know they are interested in accessibility as well.

[Comments: No experience with this system]
Colony CMS - A Standards based Accessible CMS brought to my attention by Richard Conyard who is involved and I know from Accessify as well. Once again someone I know is interested in accessibility.

[Comments: No experience with this system, Richard Conyard is however a developer I respect.]
NQContent - this is new to me. However as you will see reading the main page many UK government councils and some organizations have chosen it for it's flexibility.

[Comments: I have no experience on this CMS nor will I due to the Price. You must also expect to re-pay the licensing fee every 1 or 2 years. I have yet to note where it claims accessibility, however many choosing it fall under UK Government Guidelines so it clearly can not be unaccessible and is flexible enough to really tweak it to make it so.]
Polopoly - this is a Swedish CMS for larger comapanies and corporations. There is no price to bee found easily when scanning the site but I assume it is not cheap.

[Comments: No experience with this system. It has a rather impressive customer list. Many which come under the UK's DDA accessibility law, so it is said to be good as far as accessibility is concerned.]
NQcontent - This one makes many claims to accessibility compliance. Again it is a CMS for larger organizations.

[Comments: No experience with this system]
Subdreamer - Not sure who suggested this one, nor do I see any apparent claims to accessibility. However it does look promising and has a price tag a normal person can swallow with a little struggle. Also offers a Photo Gallery ad different skins.

[Comments: No experience with this system]
Defacto - This is as I understand it a Hosted service, so on their servers and it does cost money. However their accessibility is said to be very good and they offer different account types like, Non-Profit, Educational, Corporate and Public Sector.

[Comments: No experience with this system]

I have also come across one named CMSimple.

But keep in mind, a CMS is only a tool to help speed up site creation and maintenance, accessibility is still a matter of common sense, you have to change things by hand still sometimes.

You may also find OpensourceCMS.com useful.

Lastly, Mambo is well known but not an alternative in my mind if you wish accessibility. Although far from the best, if you want Mambo I would at least stress that you consider Drupal as the better of the two.

Blogging

Those of you into blogging have likely heard of WordPress as one of the best programs for it. However be default WordPress is not specifically Accessibility targeted. [There as been a major release improving Wordpress and a update of that a week later. It is sweet, we are using it at the paper for our blogs. 02/28/07]

A web developer I know and respect has created a WordPress theme that you may find interesting and that will improve the accessibility of your site. Beast-Blog theme for WordPress

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Since the publishing of this thread there seems to have been some movement and a few more products have come to light... all of which I have not used. So I offer to you two more links, a piece on CMS accessibility from 456 Berea Street with allot of CMS suggestions in the comments and some CMS Test results from Juicy Studios.

Content management systems and accessibility - 456 Berea Street
Choosing an Accessible CMS - Juicy Studios

Posted by capmexbiz at Apr 19, 2005 12:23:35 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I started handcoding my pages, for accessibility and standards compliance. Global updates were done via html editors search and replace.

Now I use a CMS in all of my projects. It's something that totally changes the way you interact with your website. It's good to know they are getting better in the accessibility field.
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Posted by LSW at May 21, 2005 5:39:11 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Thread has been edited and comments added. QnECMS is the CMS I have chosen to use.

Posted by Les at May 22, 2005 5:26:08 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
hi LSW

I know you have listed a lot of CMS --- came across this site
CMS Watch --- not sure if it is any use for you experts ?

Cheers

Les
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Tomorrow never comes, make the most of today

Posted by LSW at May 23, 2005 7:03:20 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Thanks for the Link

Posted by Les at May 23, 2005 7:31:43 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Hi LSW

Everytime I log onto my ISP I see different photos on the homepage, and yesterday I looked at the source code and 'Lo and Behold' it was kept up to date with CMS:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

So I have/am seeing it in action daily ---- great, as long as the images are the same size and the text and links in the same box ?
I think thats how its done -- ??

les
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Tomorrow never comes, make the most of today

Posted by LSW at Jul 13, 2005 5:38:34 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Sorry les, hadn't seen this. Nor heard fo Spectra, will have a look at it.

Yea allot of CMS will allow rotation of images etc.

OK, folks I have added a couple more CMS and some comments.

Posted by admin at Jul 13, 2005 7:13:36 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Hey Kyle,

I appreciate your work putting together a list of the CMS systems out there. I've occasionally played with the idea of using a CMS for Killersites.com.

Why?

Well, I would love to just get back to creating content for Killersites and not mess with layout and other things that a good CMS should handle for you automatically.

Your thoughts?
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Stefan Mischook

Video Tutorial Store | Web Templates

Posted by lm at Jul 13, 2005 7:28:36 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
hi,
i find this QnECMS very attractive but what about shopping cart to it? Are there also CMS that are as accessible and as easy to use (for resell also) but with all these e-commerce possibillities?
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jul 13, 2005 8:28:37 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
@ Stefan - It has it's advantages. Course depends on what CMS you use.

QnECMS is what Jim uses for the GAWDS web site. All Gawds members can then include articles and such we write (once they have been approved by admin of course) ad includes a blog system/RSS feed.

QnE is made up of 4 to 6 templates:
Temlate Head and template footer for the index page
Template head and template footer for all other pages

Then if you like, template head and footer for the admin pages, but I just use the default on my sites.

I can go in at any time and edit pages fo mistakes as well as add pages etc. I can do it from any internet connection.

@ IM - I don't know of any CMS that comes with a shopping cart, at best those would be plugins. I geerally use the shopping crats fro the instatution.

If you are worried about accessibility ( biggrin

meaning I have done my Job well) there is really only one accessible shopping cart I am a aware of. I will look it up for you, the developer is a member of GAWDS as well.

Posted by Les at Jul 13, 2005 8:53:45 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Hi Kyle

Reference the earlier post I made, i always wondered how the pages were updated throughout the day, and after checking the source code, I saw it was done through CMS.

Never heard of CMS it until you brought it into a discussion on this forum.

thanks.
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Tomorrow never comes, make the most of today

Posted by lm at Jul 13, 2005 9:59:30 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
@lsw
yeah you done your job alright biggrin

besides
it seems that accessibility often comes with more accessible code biggrin

- more readable therefore easy changable.
I will wait for this accessible shopping cart you promised to find.
In reality all even small businesses now want to have CMS like web sites with shopping cart. So im looking for some solution - not that expensive for such combination in order to buy for example unlimited license and later resell.

Cheers
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jul 13, 2005 12:42:39 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Got it Im: http://www.dpivision.com/

Posted by lm at Jul 13, 2005 3:51:25 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
thanx LSW,
it looks great - i think quite expensive though for just opening small bussinesses.
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jul 25, 2005 4:36:43 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I know of another accessible shopping cart being built by Rich peddley, one of the names behind QnECMS and a Accessibility developer. But it is in Beta testing and no idea on the price. Right now it is being looked at by some members of GAWDS. No idea when it will be released.

Posted by LSW at Jul 25, 2005 4:49:22 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Mambo - Grrrr devilish

Ok, I don't have a choice. They want Mambo they get Mambo. But my Opinion of it hit rock bottom. If you do not like Lemming sites, those that look like the rest and you want it easy, then Mambo may bo good for you.

But f you have a finished site you want to keep.... go somewhere else.

Now I created my Template fro my original design, you can tell what the site is to be.. but that is it. I have spent two hours trying to find things... you are on your own trying to track elements down. My main nav is partly as it should but some other CSS is interfiering, I do not know if it is inline cause I can find the bloody tempate or whatever for it!

When look in my source code, the defaul links as I have yet to make the menu bar, each LI has the same class tacked on! 5 links then 5 x class="whatever"!

o maybe they have some good developers there, but they are missing the point in CSS. I have no idea what PHP code calls up what as nothing is well commented.... it is HTML 4.0 but my template is XHTML Tag Soup. Al the things it writes in are in tables when my design is tables free!

I am at a loss as to what to do... Go through every line of code in every folder and make changes and break the code? Spend hours looking for links to some other CSS I can't even find? Change my CSS to patch all the silly classes they use... assuming I even find them all... crying

I am about just to take a standard template and make it blue and call it a day, it is not worth the Ulcer just to have a unaccessible mismash of mabo junk and what is left of a once accessible site.

I for one will refuse all further customers who wish Mambo unless they pay me a very impressive sum.

If you see Mambo - run for your life.

Posted by lm at Jul 25, 2005 5:31:05 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
seems if your client 've chosen Mambo then you have no other choice then - just use what you got there. Call it blue mambo.
And thanks for another tip on accessible cms.
Cheers
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jul 25, 2005 6:02:46 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I may just refuse, I delivered a accessible tables free, javascript free, CSS-p site that was error free and Valdiated.

If they want to ruin it with Mambo it is their problem.

Posted by lm at Jul 25, 2005 7:19:35 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
precisely. This mambo jam will have no signature of yours so all the blame will go to their chosen CMS.
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My blog

Posted by lm at Sep 8, 2005 9:24:37 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
ehm,
now its my turn on Mambo biggrin

. As i have no experience with cms at all i've decided to install it (it happens to be mambo because i found a very good tutorial for very mambo beginners) and try on all those goodies cms has.
And for a time being i got stuck on finding some decent template ( css based tabless centered ) that i could upload stright away. Could anybody suggest some?
Thanx.
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Sep 8, 2005 9:30:26 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
No, that was one of points against Mambo wink

Posted by lm at Sep 8, 2005 9:35:10 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
i dont belive nobody got a nerve to change a code on any of existed mambo tempates to tabless tongue

. I'd do it myself if find a decent tutorial how to get to change a code over there.
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My blog

Posted by dawg at Sep 8, 2005 10:17:31 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I find Mambo to be the best CMS that I have worked with. I can understand the confusion at first about leaning a temple, but once you know it well then it is easy. I have added comments to my template so I do not have to go looking for a needle in a haystack.

I really like Mambo. It is fast and not overly cluttered like some php nuke site are with a gazillion modules that are not necessary.

Posted by admin at Sep 8, 2005 2:29:46 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Dawg is back ... where have you been and how is the little one?
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Stefan Mischook

Video Tutorial Store | Web Templates

Posted by lm at Sep 9, 2005 10:43:37 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
hi,
i've found template for Mambo and it has XHTML that validates and gives only one error in CSS validating so far. Consider that i installed the latest Mambo self - also as they said is improved version ( snatched link to it in accessify forum), hope to dig up Mambo further to see all possibillities.
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My blog

Posted by dawg at Sep 9, 2005 10:57:08 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility

Dawg is back ... where have you been and how is the little one?

Hey he is doing great, I am going out to buy his one year birthday gift today. He will be a year old on the 17. I spread myself kinda thin as I have many projects going but read here when I get a chance.

BTW I did notice that you played around with Word Press. They are the only blog I really use and have installed many of them as well as done a few templates and added some mods to the dashboard.

What do you think of WP so far?

Posted by admin at Sep 9, 2005 12:29:33 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
@Dawg,

I am just getting into it, but so far I am impressed with what it can do and the architecture - the PHP folks are becoming more sophisticated with their programming.

-

I am now seeing the differences between a blog/cms and a message board and I am now a believer in the use of blogs for many web projects.

Actually, I think that web design will soon be more about installing, customizing and configuring blogs and CMS for clients and less about building from scratch.

Much in the same way that programmers don't create their own UI elements for Windows or Mac applications, web designers shouldn't have to fiddle with HTML and CSS code for common layouts and functionality.

Web designers should only have to tweak things, perhaps create templates and do other things that leverage the infrastructure of a good CMS or blog.

I've been talking about web templates for a while now, I see a blog/CMS as being both a visual and functionality based template - this is cool.

CHANGES IN THE WEB DESIGN WORLD

I see blogs and CMS's as being a 'platform' for web site development for the majority of websites. Soon it will be considered that building websites without the use of a blog / CMS (as its base,) will be like cutting down your own trees when you want to build a house - makes no sense.

Professional web designer MUST pick a blog or CMS and become an expert at modifying, installing and configuring it. Those who get into that game now, will run circles around the competition who are still doing things from scratch.

This old man of web design (that's me!) has finally opened his eyes to the future of web design - it's found in blogs and CMS.
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Stefan Mischook

Video Tutorial Store | Web Templates

Posted by LSW at Sep 9, 2005 1:53:10 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Oh we will always be needed to make the templates, otherwise all the CMS will look the same.

You can easily spot PostNuke, Mambo and Plone. Spotting a QnECMS and to a lesser amount Drupal is harder. Some CMS/Blog lend themseles well to original designs in templates. Others like Mambo do not.

The future belongs to those who can blend their own templates to standard CMS's.

Posted by dawg at Sep 9, 2005 6:34:35 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility

@Dawg,

Actually, I think that web design will soon be more about installing, customizing and configuring blogs and CMS for clients and less about building from scratch.

.

I sure hope you are wrong Stef! Fingers crossed that you are because I can install a blog with two clicks of the mouse and is rather simple. If you are right then any idiot with fingers can take over.

I did this one yesterday and I have to do a decent header and background image but it is ready to go.

http://hurricanekatrina.nvfc.us/

I really do like Word Press and am comfortable with the inner workings of it so I do not really stray away too much. Douglas Bowman from Stop Design has designed some great templates for Blogger but blogger is more static, only advantage with a static blog is if the server that has the database goes down a static blog may still be accessable.

Posted by admin at Sep 10, 2005 12:12:42 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Hey Dawg,

Not all websites will be suitable for a blog/cms software, but many will. With CMS you can now provide true business solutions right out of the box.

I will be looking to define this more clearly in upcomming articles, podcast and videos. My goal is show people how they can put together really effective business offerings...

I don't look at these changes (CMS and blogs,) in a bad way - I actually think it will just improve the overall quality of the Web and further separate the dabblers from the pros - at least in the short term.

-

I remember when WYSIWYG tools like Frontpage and Dreamweaver first came out, we hand-coders saw the end of our way of doing things ... it was a major change but in the end, the bar was raised.
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Stefan Mischook

Video Tutorial Store | Web Templates

Posted by LSW at Sep 10, 2005 4:04:25 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
The real problem for us is that it allows the owner to update and maintain the site.

Traditionally we get a simple payment for the web site, hard to live off that. So the real money for us was maintaining the site, a regular income. That falls away for the most part with CMS.

It is in the stars how we will deal with that.

Posted by admin at Sep 10, 2005 3:35:19 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
"So the real money for us was maintaining the site, a regular income. "

Yes, I see that falling away. But I see new doors opening up as well. I think you can see higher end web sites considering all the built in features found in many CMS/blog. You can say install plug-ins and creat e new templates for the CMS.

Instead of providing a static set of web pages, you will be able to offer a 'system', a tool for the business.

With change comes opportunity.
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Stefan Mischook

Video Tutorial Store | Web Templates

Posted by Robbkore at Sep 21, 2005 12:31:04 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility

The real problem for us is that it allows the owner to update and maintain the site.

Traditionally we get a simple payment for the web site, hard to live off that. So the real money for us was maintaining the site, a regular income. That falls away for the most part with CMS.

It is in the stars how we will deal with that.

But who is going to update the CMS/Blog software? I don't think the client could dl, install , and reconfigure those. You can also get a better edge on things by doing some minor redesign work.
I am going to get working on my own methods for dealing with things like this, to make it a part of the business, instead of a hinderance. :)

Posted by LSW at Oct 6, 2005 6:37:04 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I have added a number of new CMSs that I have come across recently.

Accessible Joomala!
Textpattern
Subdreamer
MKDoc
Polopoly
NQcontent

Posted by shelfimage at Oct 6, 2005 9:51:47 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/10/05]
Hi,
Thanks for the link to subdreamer. I'm looking at it now. It looks very user-friendly for a client to manage after the inital set-up.

The code makes me a bit uncomfortable. No DOCTYPE, seems a bit messy, but it is solid and the cms seems to have a good track record. And, as I mentioned the admin functions are easy. The image gallery is a Big plus - lots of customization.

It won't validate (I haven't tried, just a guess) and probably not accessible. One of my clients is a social services non-profit company and (they may not know this yet) but it is important to them to have an accessible site (at least as much as I can provide for them).

My other option is Nucleus CMS, which I've used only as a blog. The newer version seems promising with a lot of plugins and the admin is ok to work with from a client point of view. More training on my end for my clients though.

I have a demo key for QnECMS and will take a look at it today again for my social services client.

-
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"The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo
Save the developers<!>
Maine Webworks

Posted by LSW at Oct 6, 2005 10:15:26 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/10/05]
Keep in mind with accessibility and CMSs, accessibility is one part the back end, course that is generally only interesting if the owner has employees who are disabled or a open community type where anyone can add content.

The other part is output. QnECMS does put out god outpit as well as adding alt attributes etc., so alot has to do with your Template, accessible input often results in accessible output. A DOCTYPE may be easy to add in it's code or your template.

Things like Mambo that place every peice of new info in a tables are worthless. So a CMS like Subdreamer may still be rweakable to be accessible and standards if you can easily find and tweak the code.

Posted by shelfimage at Oct 6, 2005 1:24:19 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/10/05]
LOL - I like the new guy [avatar]! smile

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"The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo
Save the developers<!>
Maine Webworks

Posted by maz0 at Dec 15, 2005 5:27:52 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]

Polopoly - this is a Swedish CMS for larger comapnies and corporations. There is no price to bee found easily when scanning the site but I assume it is not cheap.

Polopoly is writen in Java and xml, and it not cheap. To buy it you have to pay something in between 100000 to 125000 US$.

sorry for the bad spelling

Posted by LSW at Dec 15, 2005 5:42:05 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Guess that is why they make it so hard to find the price! Like I sailarger corporations etc., but you never know when someone from such big groups may join here so I added it to the list with the best. We are not all poor orphan children. biggrin

Posted by dawg at Dec 15, 2005 2:22:58 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
I just got done looking at QnECMS and they brag (QnECMS is a Content Management System built with accessibility from the ground-up, making it the most standards compliant and accessible CMS on the market.) that they are they most accessible cms but yet there are quite a few of their sites that they have screen shots of that not only fail validation but fail miserably.

Scrolling through their screen captures almost all of the sites looked identical, carbon copies. Yeah they had different pictures and colors but they all looked the same.

Text pattern looks good for a newcomer. I like the way they handle their style sheets, this ought to make styling fairly simple for someone who is not familiar with their CMS. I have not had a chance to play with Textpattern but looks promising.

Typo 3, too much of a resource hog, I would not use it.

Posted by LSW at Dec 15, 2005 4:39:49 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]

Scrolling through their screen captures almost all of the sites looked identical, carbon copies. Yeah they had different pictures and colors but they all looked the same.

QnE only comes with a simple template that is just a place holder. You are not given a template per say, so the design lies entirely with the designer. Two or three of my sites are listed there.

Very possible that many of the sites are built by the same designers who have chosen to use it and many designers sites all follow a tyical look as a musician has a particular sound.

But there is no requirement in the design, you are not forced into a template style.

As for validation I have covered that before. One has to look closely at the errors shown and where. As it is a bundle of PHP scripts and you yourself are responsible for the design, yes, if a designer does not validate their design then it will have many validation problems. That has nothing to do with the CMS.

Same for the blogs and pages a owner chooses to allow comments in. Those comments can easily slip validation errors in when those leaving the commets are not careful.

The actual code put out meets standards far better than any other I tested. But that to can depend on if you write all your HTML in the CMS per hand or if you use one of the three editors available, and then which you choose.

Posted by dawg at Dec 15, 2005 7:17:53 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
I was just making my assessment from what they have on their own home page.

They put up the screen captures of their choice, and they use them to advertise of sites that use them.

Some of their sreen captures sites had 80 plus errors. Any CMS should validate out of the box.

When there are so many free cms that do the same thing it is kinda like why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

Textpattern looks more promising to me.

Posted by LSW at Dec 16, 2005 3:45:22 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
That is my point Dawg, out of the box the CMS does validate.

Most CMS force you to use a template. QnE does not. You get a template of course that has the stuff, but it is not really one that you would generally use. You create your own HTML and place it in sections around the core PHP scripts or cut them out and place them in your HTML.

Most validation problems will be comming from the design of the designer and not the CMS. There have been a few problems, for instance in the Blog, the full text on the main page would validate but of I limited how many words should show, it did not because it cut off the </p> tag. But that has been corrected in the newer versions after I pointed it out.

Maybe I can set it up somewhere out of the box so you can see what it looks like.

Posted by lm at Jan 10, 2006 4:11:11 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Hi,
Could anybody will help with a bit of advice (actually it is a big one).
My client wants to set up a fansite for a footballer. He will maintain this web further without clear knowledge of html. So I was thinking to suggest some CMS to him but what kind is better? This fansite require a lots of plugins right away - guest book, mailing list, chat room may be and of course the footballer site should be updated at least once a week. So CMS should be simple and usable.
What would you advice on that one?
Please help?
(of course i think the budget is not huge at all so it should be some open source CMS)
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jan 10, 2006 7:35:30 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
I would suggest Drupal then.

Posted by lm at Jan 10, 2006 9:23:32 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Thanx LSW,
The list of plugins in Drupal looks impressive. I just wondering if it so easy to install and use...
Even if this client of mine will choose something else i will try Drupal later voor my other projects.
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My blog

Posted by LSW at Jan 10, 2006 11:07:35 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Yea Drupal is pretty easy to work with and has many templates. It is also more accessible then Mambo.

It is not the best CMS, but it is the best I think under freeware CMS's.

Posted by billyboy at Jan 10, 2006 4:23:24 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Hi Kyle,
Have you had a chance to play with this one yet?

GreenBeast by accessibility advocate Mike Cherim. I will be testing this soon, I have never used it but I respect Mike so that goes a ways with me.

I'm thinking of diving into a CMS and it sounds good to me. Of course I wouldn't know a good one from a bad one. What are a few things I should be looking for? And suppose I tried one and found out I didn't like it. If I switched would I have to redo all my pages, would it be a lot of work changing over?
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Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

Posted by LSW at Jan 11, 2006 5:19:55 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
No, I was planning on using it for a customer but they chose a different one (what I use). I have a web site on hold (for 7 years now!) I may use it on.

The last version I tried is now a couple versions old, still in the early stages so a bit tricky to set up, I imagine Mike has simplified it in later versions.

As you are into accessibility it would be a good choice.

Can't say what to look for, it is to individual.

Will you need different languages due to a international visitor base?
Do you need fancy plugins?
Does it need to be free?
What language, PHP, Python?
Does it need idiot proof installment or or is your knowledge with servers enough to maybe use a more technical CMS.

Mambo, Drupal, Plone and those types all use what I find a bit hidden coding, so hard to change things and most sites tent to be identifiable as to which CMS it is.

GreenBeast i think is far more flexible. QnECMS is far more flexible. You use QnE with any possible design. Both of these CMS however are new to the market so not as constant. Users are sillmaking suggestions for improvements and additions. Where Mambo and Drupal have been around for years. I find smaller CMS like QnE and GB to be simpler and easier to use then the big bloated CMS's who tend to include tools you may never use.

So it depends on you what you look for. I know people who swear by Mambo and consider it the best where I see it as the worst. In your case (but not knowing the needs of the site)...

Is it accessible?
Is the code accessible to you so you can make changes and make it more accessible if needed?
Is the Temlate flexible?
Can you use an original design or are you locked into a template form?
How easy/hard is it to install?

As for switching, again hard to say. QnECMS is really just a matter fo pasting the required PHP segments into a design you already have. So it is easy to change designs. But how to switch to a different CMS depends on the other CMS. Drupal & Mambo are not very flexible so it would not work well. So it depends on the CMS you have and the one you go to. All in all, easier to just redo the site completely.

Same with content. Now the content is stored in the Database... but the names and field IDs and types are up to the CMS creators. So even though your content is in a database,the new CMS would be looking for it under different names etc., so mostly worthless. You would have to really go through and change each field name and type etc per hand, a real pain. So easiest would be simply save all content in files and then paste it in once a page is created in the new CMS so it is saved as that CMS needs it.

Posted by GreenBeast at Jan 11, 2006 1:52:44 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Thanks Kyle.

It's true. Even this verion is a little rough around the edges. I have determined it's a hand-coder's delight as that's the type of person that get the most use out of it. We did make about a zillion imporvements though.

Mike
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Portfolio|Blog|Hosting|CMS|Accessites

Posted by billyboy at Jan 12, 2006 2:12:34 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]

I have determined it's a hand-coder's delight

That's me

Geez Kyle you pretty much nailed what I want. Accesibility, flexibility, ease of use. I don't need anything big and fancy with tons of plug-ins I'll never use or that's complicated to set and use (K.I.S.S.). Basically all I want an easy way to update and add pages. I do need something where I can create and use my own design (That's the fun part). And I do need something that I can create accessible, usable websites with. Greenbeast is sounding better all the time. Think I need to read up on it in a bit more detail and CMS in general but probably going to end up going with that.
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Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

Posted by LSW at Jul 17, 2006 12:34:19 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Added CMS Made Simple - looks interesting, is listed under the Free CMS.

Posted by DesignBySLS at Jan 27, 2007 2:06:25 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
This isn't really a CMS persay as most might view one but for those looking to set something up so others can edit a site but sitll keep the design integrity in place and specify who is able to edit what...

http://www.adobe.com/products/contribute/

I've used Contribute 3. Not 4 as of yet but 3 is ok...

I didn't try to edit things like HTML or CSS the one time I tried it out, thought I think rollover galleries and features like them may be out. But for standard image insertion with linkage, and text content updates or text link insertion it works.

This is more for that situation were your client screws up their site 15 times in one week by trying to update their own info. *banging head on desk* - This way you can set them to a more restricted access level. *wink*

This also allows flashpaper pubishing, and ties in with the same suite that has PDF conversion software included.

Etc. Etc. *I am sure everyone can read what features there are there*

S
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Why is it that our own site overhauls take so darn long? Both complete. Mmmmmm love my .com. Now I love my other one too. But Joe's logo design made it!

What are YOUR favorite veggies?

Posted by LSW at Jan 27, 2007 5:29:10 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [24/10/05]
Contribute is actually pretty good. But it is a software that allows designer and customer to edit the site, it has to be purchased and installed.

CMS need no installed software, they can be used from anywhere.

If you use Wordpress, head on over, they just had a major new release and it has some really nifty upgrades.

Posted by LSW at Jun 7, 2007 3:03:39 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/07/07]
Updated: Two additional links bottom.

Posted by LSW at Jul 3, 2007 11:51:35 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/07/07]
Updated again, added Umbraco (ASP.NET based) and Defacto (Hosted service)

Posted by DesignBySLS at Apr 20, 2008 12:40:42 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/07/07]
Kyle hun...

You've not got Drupal up there and sorry to all the WP lovers, etc...

But Drupal with the Zen Theme kicks the heck outa many of the others for them ability combined with accessibility.

cool

*goes back to working her arse off*
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Why is it that our own site overhauls take so darn long? Both complete. Mmmmmm love my .com. Now I love my other one too. But Joe's logo design made it!

What are YOUR favorite veggies?

Posted by Zombie at Apr 20, 2008 10:57:45 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [06/07/07]
Drupal sucks... or did suck at the time this was created and it was based on what CMS are accessible... Drupal was not.
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Posted by dreamcon at Jun 27, 2008 5:45:01 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [07/03/07]
great post with useful web design information.....this is really helping me to achieve great web design and development result.....
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website design and web hosting by http://www.dreamconsultancy.com.au
domain name registration

Posted by dreamcon at Jun 27, 2008 5:53:35 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [07/03/07]
Excellent.....I was Googling for most of the time to find out how many CMS systems available in the market and then I cam across this website and it is giving me all useful information that I really struggle to find....

all thanks to killer-sites for that effort to maintain such a wonderful website design resources.....

I have only tried some of the listed CMS based web design and it has worked well for me...

I will try rest of them now....
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website design and web hosting by http://www.dreamconsultancy.com.au
domain name registration

Posted by jlhaslip at Oct 19, 2008 10:18:52 PM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [07/03/07]
Has anyone measured sNews CMS on an accessibility scale yet?

http://snewscms.com/

Posted by MrGrey at Dec 2, 2008 4:39:10 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [10/030/08]
.

About accessibility

Firstly. It may not be all that abvious, specially for non english natives (or developers) what the meaning of Accessibility really is.

Can You define "Accessibility" in other words, pls!? How does it actually show to the user?

Secondly: Does accessibility make the cms more non-intuitive or not so easy to understand for newbies?

/MrG

Posted by Wickham at Dec 2, 2008 7:47:42 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [10/030/08]
Can You define "Accessibility" in other words, pls!? How does it actually show to the user?

Accessibility usually doesn't "show" on a webpage; two basic features are:-

1. It allows people without a mouse (either disabled people or people who just don't like using one) to navigate by using the tab key and other keys.

2. It allows blind or partially sighted people to use screen readers which dictate to speakers as you move around the page.

Does accessibility make the cms more non-intuitive or not so easy to understand for newbies?

I think the coding needs to be the same and have the same result in a CMS.
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Code downloaded to my PC will be deleted in due course.
WIN XP SP3; IE7, Firefox 3.0, Opera and Safari for Windows; screen resolution usually 1024x768.
IE6 on W98 with 800*600.

Posted by debmc99 at Dec 16, 2008 8:13:12 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
Which do you think is easier to learn: WordPress or CMSMS? I know very little PHP and I am no programmer, but I know I need to learn some sort of blog/CMS. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

Posted by shelfimage at Dec 16, 2008 9:25:41 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility
I first learned WP and although it was easy, some of the templating and tag usage felt awkward b/c I was not very familiar with PHP.

When I started with CMSMS I thought it was easier because you are not using traditional PHP tags or syntax to build a template (unless you want to).

In CMSMS to include a page's title and content from the page editor, simply add this tag into your template:
<h1>{title}</h1>
<div id="myContent">{content}</div>

In WP to add content - a post summary or full post article - add this, or something similar, to your template:

<?php if (have_posts()) : while (have_posts()) : the_post(); ?>
		<div class="post" id="post-<?php the_ID(); ?>">
			<div class="entry">
				<?php the_content('<p>Continue reading &raquo;</p>'); ?>
	
				<?php //if page is split into more than one
					link_pages('<p>Pages: ', '</p>', 'number'); ?>
			</div>
		</div>
	  <?php endwhile; endif; ?>

The HTML markup and containers around the tags and PHP code can be changed to your liking.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.

CMSMS templates are stored in a database. You will need a good web host with reliable and strong database servers to prevent long page loads. There are a lot of things that can be done so this is not an issue, but too advanced for this discussion.

On the plus side, you can have one template or many templates for a website to allow design flexibility.

You can not have multiple templates easily on a WordPress on your site unless you want to simulate this using PHP techniques - too advanced for this discussion.

On the plus side, the templates are not stored in the database so page load is not an issue.

Looking back, I think CMSMS is slightly easier to learn because there is more flexibility. However, Wpress has a much stronger user community and documentation make learning it fun.
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Posted by LSW at Dec 16, 2008 10:56:52 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility [10/030/08]

About accessibility
Firstly. It may not be all that abvious, specially for non english natives (or developers) what the meaning of Accessibility really is.

Can You define "Accessibility" in other words, pls!? How does it actually show to the user?

Secondly: Does accessibility make the cms more non-intuitive or not so easy to understand for newbies?

/MrG

The Germans call it "Barrier Free Design." I always rather prefered that. It is making a web site that does not block the user from using it.

What if you are color blind and they use red text on black? If you don't see red you will have dark olive green on black. It is a barrier.

What if you are epileptic and they have some MTV style "in your face" hectic animation... you can have a seizure so cannot use the site. It is a barrier.

What if you choose not to or cannot use a mouse do to say Arthritus, what if you use a mobile device?... yet the site is built only for mouse use using JavaScript, or the links do not have underlines or effects and their are lots of them. Mis use of header tags... These are all barriers to using the site with a keyboard.

What if you build a site with a fixed width for widescreen as that is what you have and what looks nice.... and I have a smaller resolution? Side scroll is a barrier.

What if the user is blind and you use poor code and nested tables 5 deep and psuedo lists and no headers... you have destroyed the logic and navigation aid for blind users, it is a barrier.

What if you use lots of slang, either English slang or techno slang without explaining it or having another form to understand these terms. It is a barrier to those not fluent speakers or not in that business and to those with cognitive disorders who have trouble understanding what they read.

If you justify text so you have these long gaps between words or long paragraphs of small type or really wide paragraphs of long text it can be a barrier for Dyslexics.

Accessibility for the user of a web page makes the page easier to use for disabled and abled bodied as well and helps search engines as it is also about logic and good structure and complete correct markup without/with few errors.

For CMS, it makes the CMS easier to use for the same reasons. If it is you alone accessibility is not an issue unless you use it. If you are using a CMS for a site someone else will work with, then the back end should be accessible as well for the admin folks now or those in the future as employees change or illnesses, age or accidents take their toll. As we get older our health does not get better and anyone can break their mouse arm and need to use a keyboard or get a new mobile device for Christmas.

That help?

Posted by LSW at Dec 16, 2008 11:02:22 AM

Re: CMS (Content Management System) : Accessibility

Which do you think is easier to learn: WordPress or CMSMS? I know very little PHP and I am no programmer, but I know I need to learn some sort of blog/CMS. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

They are not hard to learn, it is mostly just learning enough PHP to be able to understand what does what and what needs changing.

What is important is what is needed.

WP can be used for a CMS... but why? It is a blog software.

CMSMS can be used for a blog I believe, most CMS offer RSS feeds now, But it is to control a regular site with real pages of static content and whatever, so why use it for a Blog.

As a purist, although they can be used for multiple roles, why use a CMS for a blog and why use a Blog for a CMS?

If you want a web site to sell things or introduce a product, service or info on a company etc., use a CMS.

If you want to write articles or post about your newest rusted beer can for your rusted beer can collection... use a Blog. Use the right tool for the job.

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