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Thread: The importance of Forums
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Thread Status: Active Thread Type: Sticky Thread Total posts in this thread: 20
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LSW
Advanced Member USA Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Post Count: 6287 Status: Offline |
Before I start I want to explain that this may sound like a self centered rant all about myself but if you will bear with it you will find it does have a point in fact. I went through web design school in 1999-2000, I got out of school three months after the "Dot Com Crash" flooded the market with experienced designers now unemployed. I never did get a really serious job. What I did was struggle with Freelance design to get a portfolio (which has now shrunk to 5 sites, two of which are mine as one after the other went offline for one reason or another) and I did so with no connections or friends to bounce ideas and techniques with. Now I can say that my schooling was not the best. We learned to do nothing more with CSS then replace <font> tags, it was in fact a mere 2 hour class in that time. I was taught that HTML was dead and XHTML had replaced it and that XHTML is simply HTML that works with XML. We also no how wrong that is. This lead for me to what I consider "Stagnation." That is what is what I did, I stagnated. I kept the level of knowledge that I had and went no further, I merely did the same things wrong as I was taught for 3 years because it was taught that way and the school must know what they were doing. About 2003 I landed the job of creating a web portal for my District's Youth Services (I was living in Berlin Germany at the time) and this needed to be accessible (I thought I knew what that meant back then) according to the German BITV laws. Well this was a big deal and trying to figure out how to do it with tables I came across two articles and a old Bookmarks file. The articles were from Gez Lemon (Juicey Studios) & Patrick "Redux" Lauke and both pointed to a web site named Accessif.com and it's Forum. The Bookmarks were mine and I discovered a site called Killersites that I had been to a few times based on the book of a big name designer. Killersites Well Killersites hadchanged, a new fellow was running in named Stefan andit now had a forum. So I joined it and quickly was linked further to a web site named CSSZenGarden - my Jaw hit the floor! CSS can do that? I still do not know if my school was so bad or at that time CSS support was just so poor, but it opened a new world to me and I jumped in feet first. Stef and David Mead were a great help in those early days. David has since droppedoff Killersites due to spending time with his fairly new child but stops by once in a while. Accessibility did not exist on KS, but as I became more proficient I brought it up more and more and Stef supported me and was open minded to changing his ideas of web design and I finally became a moderator here ...ok, the fact I was in Germany and online when he was offline likely helped to *grin*. not only did I learn allothere about web design but having to then find ways to describe these new ideas to other regularsand new members helped me focus and consider options for arguments and teaching web design and accessibility here taught me as much as anything. Now I find members such as Im, Tpatterson, Thelma, Billy and many more who came here with either no experienceor limited experience with accessibility and such now answering the same questions they used to ask and many more pointing out accessibility issues and the likes. I see my answerers online before I even have a chance. This is not because I am a super designer or teacher, it is because these people were open to new ideas and counter points to what the believed when they came here. They have reached the point they are now at, being respected by newbies they help because they were willing to listen to some unknown guy named LSW with just as much or maybe less years in the business as they themselves had. But in the end, they are now where they are because they got involved in a forum where they had contact with Stef, David, myself and each other.Because they had a place they enjoyed where new ideas and old myths were discussed among experts and beginners and all as equals. It is Forums that brought us where we are today. Accessify I walked into Accessify Forum thinking I knew what I was talking about ... whoa was I wrong. I did not know beans about accessibility in the real world. That was quickly pointed out to me and once I toned down my postings and began asking more, those in the group accepted me and I have learned from some of the best in the business including but not limited to Joe Clark , Patrick "Redux" Lauke, Isofarrow, Malarkey, Tommy "Toolman" Olsson, Brother Cake, Gez Lemon, Diva, Nigel Peck, Molly Holzschlag, ... also contact with people who work with and/or represent the W3C, RNIB and many others like Universities. The vast majority being from Europe and giving me another way of looking at the web. I even today read more than I answer as people there are far above me in the learning curve. This time I started and remained a beginner in may ways and as a user and not admin or moderator can say that it is also invaluable as a resource, Many of the best links I share at Killersites come from threads at Accessify. Although it like every other forum is about learning, it tends to be more discussion oriented with points and counter points as accessibility is not a s clear cut as HTML and CSS. It is harder to answer with yes and no answers as at KS. So their is more discussion about peoples views and understandings of guidelines and real life real time discussions about what works and what does not. The best blogs out there post here quite often before going live to get feedback from other big names. Accessify Forum put me in contact with the Guild of Accessible Web Designers (GAWDS) who's membership I joined and discovered (members web sites are first examined to ensure that they truly understand or support accessibility) that my "Accessible web site" had more barriers then you could shake a stick at and that I did not know the first thing about accessibility. But Mel Pedley of Blackwidow Designs not only pointed out my failings but how to fix them and with her help the LSW of that time became accessible and I was accepted as a member. I still find myself slapping my forehead over there when I discover some accessibility consideration so logical I should have seen it myself ...so I am still learning today. As above, the acceptance of the regulars and in this case industry leaders and their patience mean that once again a Forum opened up new worlds for me and "brainstorming with the best" has boosted my knowledge in these last 3 years far beyond the first year and I have learned more then I ever did in school. Other forums There are other forums out there, each with a specialty, SitePoint is a great general forum with more knowledge in the direction of programming and business oriented things. Computer Arts Forum gets more into the artistic and software oriented with allotof 3D, Flash and artistic subjects. I just dropped out of actively going to these forums as they are very big and somewhat hard to deal with as well as the move, real life and more duties at killersites. It does not reflect on their usefulness, simply on lack of time to spend there. It does not matter what forum you join, the point is that forums are a must for web designers just to keep your creativity charged and keep you up to date on recent changes in the industry. Whether you are a beginner or advanced, learning or teaching does not matter, it is the participation that matters that keeps you at your best for your customers and helper or helpee you will find your self learning and improving either way. Projects Although not directly related to forums, face it, you can read tutorials, blogs, books or forums and it does no good if you cannot turn around and put it in use now or later. Bookmarks are a must! Bookmark everything! And do so logically and under different labels so you can find it again when you need it! So projects are a must, private or customer, actual or make believe ... you need projects to support you in the forums. Like I say above, my knowledge has multiplied beyond belief since joining KS and accessify. Here I made the jump in a short amount of time between beginnerand now the expert here for accessibility. All because I had projects that challenged me and required things I have never done before. But since my contract with the portal ended I have had no real challenges and although I spend allot oftime at KS some may have noticed that I am not so vocal, I help less then before, I basically chase Spam. It has become somewhat boring as the challenge is gone, I learn little new and we have a flock of regulars now faster with the same answers then me. I find myself once more in a slump, once more stagnating. I am now finishing up on a re-code of my Host's site, it was harder than expected but the only real challenge was working with Data Tables. But again i turned to the forums to get help, advice and see what I have missed neverhaving done serious data tables before and for a short time it was fun again. So i will likely write another post on the correct creation of accessible data tables. So that is my rant, maybe self centered but I enjoy seeing Thelma and Susie now helping others as David and Stef likely feel about me having seen me improve here. It is easy to get caught up in the web and forget your real life, I see that every time my daughter wants to play and I say no. But just burying yourself in projects or real life can be the death of a designer as well. If it is even just one, choose a forum you like and hit it regularly, at least once a week for a few hours just to help and see what is changing as it is changing to keep from stagnating. If you have no time for forums then try at least a news mail list or a few important blogs, preferably allowing comments. Stagnation is death in this field. ---------------------------------------- Gu.aal kwsh� yak'�i it�akw ijeet wugood�k LSW-WebDesign.com |
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gdpwatson
Stranger Joined: Jan 31, 2006 Post Count: 12 Status: Offline |
Are we allowed to reply to this? I dunno! But i will anyway! I read another of your posts earlier LSW and that in itself has made me think about webdesign in a whole different light. Having read this particular post here not only have i now a new direction in which to go with my webdesign but i also have the reassurance now that their are plenty of people in a similar position in terms of starting out with things like CSS and Accessibilty that have gone on to do well. Also i now know that i can come to these forums and they will help me get better at what i want to do! So in other words, keep up the good work and continue to accept us newbies and our mistakes as we struggle on to get to a decent level of skill. |
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mandarseo
Stranger India Joined: Jun 29, 2006 Post Count: 9 Status: Offline |
I have using forums very recently and can say from my experience that you learn faster using forums. The only drawback of the forums is that you don't have link in the learning process like what you have in books. But then if you go on to forum with some tutorial which will provide you the way to move on then it is resource to learn the complex things. Here there are plenty of teachers and colleagues available helping you in understanding things. With regards, Mandar Thosar ---------------------------------------- http://www.e-zest.net http://www.e-zest.net/Software_developement_india.html |
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daddyalfie
Advanced Member Joined: Jul 17, 2006 Post Count: 192 Status: Offline |
Before I start I want to explain that this may sound like a self centered rant all about myself but if you will bear with it you will find it does have a point in fact. Many thanks LSW for your "soul-searching" post. It was not at all either self-centered or a rant. Your help and guidance in these forums has brought many of us, (well me at least!  ) from total ignoramus to the point I am now classified as "Advanced Member" in here. In my case, if you ask enough dunderhead questions, you become advanced! Stef? How about a new category of "Persistent Pest"? I would fit that category very well! LSW; your constant attention to accesibility is something that needs to be documented. A simple list of accesibility concerns that ought to be addressed by all web-designers would do as a start. Here is what I see as major points. Please augment the points! 1) Visually impaired clients. (How do we render code for "screen-readers" ["alt" coding is obvious.]) 1a) Color blindness. (Are there specific color combinations that are troublesome, or is it mostly (all?) red / green discernment? 2) I can't believe there is a major concern about hearing impaired clients (Such as myself!), but let us know if there is. 3) Physically impaired clients. Is there something we can do for them? 4) Dyslexic clients. Other than concise and precise English, what should we do? 5) Any others? Like it or not, Kyle, you are now the recognized expert in this forum. on this subject. Your input, (Not that you have not answered these concerns numerous times in here!) would be most valuable as a synopsis of what we should be looking out for. I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden, which is at he same latitude as Fairbanks, Alaska. Gets dark early dosen't it? Wait 'til summer! Looooonng evenings! Happy Holidays to all. Alfie ---------------------------------------- If you can't sleep, try lying on the end of the bed. Then you might drop off. - Mark Twain |
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billyboy
Advanced Member Joined: Sep 3, 2005 Post Count: 2206 Status: Offline |
LSW will certainly be able to add to this, but here's a few things: 1) Visually impaired clients. (How do we render code for "screen-readers" ["alt" coding is obvious.]) You could write a book on that, but semantically correct code - using the appropriate tags - becomes very important for screen reader users. Marking up your code with proper headings, lists, paragraphs and so forth allows users to use the built in functionality of some screen readers to sort content, list headings, scan different areas of the page. Aside from the alt attribute (always include it even if it's left empty), use the title attribute for links where it is not clear from the link text where the link leads. <strong> and <em> have semantic meaning - as opposed to <b> and <i> which are purely presentational - and many screen readers will give those extra emphasis when read. Mark up abbreviations and acronyms with <abbr> or <acronym> that define them. Include "skip links" as the first item on everypage. Those are a list of links that take a user to different areas of the page. They allow screen reader users to bypass repetitive content such as your menu and go directly to the content. Forms can be particularly troublesome and there are some good links on making then accessible in this thread: Using fieldset, legend and label with forms. Tables are read linearly and content divided into cells is read out of context. They should be used for tabular data only - not for layout - and marked up appropriately with row and column headers, the scope attribute, a summary, and caption. Pop ups, opening links in new windows can be a major problem for screen reader users. It takes the focus away from what the screen reader is currently reading, and unexpectecly starts something new. Any media set to autoplay when a page opens also makes following what is being read by the screen reader difficult. You may want consider installing Firevox for testing your sites. It's a screen reading extension for Firefox that has a lot of the same functionality 'real' screen readers have. Keep in mind also that screen reader users are not the only visually impaired users that will visit your site. There are those that use text based browsers, or those that simply need a larger font size. Ensure that the same information is conveyed with styles or images disabled and your design is flexible to allow users to resize the font without the it falling apart. 1a) Color blindness. (Are there specific color combinations that are troublesome, or is it mostly (all?) red / green discernment? In the most common form of colour blindness red is seen as dark olive green. So red should not be used in combination with dark colours, or avoided altogether. (Large blocks of red can induce seizures in epileptics). Other forms of colour blindness though will cause people to see other colours differently, or to not see colour at all (everything is monochrome). So colour alone should not be used for for conveying information. For example a change in text colour on mouse over will not give any indication of change if a user can't distinguish the colour change, or highlighting an important block of text with a different colour is useless. 2) I can't believe there is a major concern about hearing impaired clients (Such as myself!), but let us know if there is. If your page contains media with important voice content, you would want to avoid background music/noise that would make it difficult to distiguish the important content from the background. 3) Physically impaired clients. Is there something we can do for them? Don't make the functionality of anything dependant on any specific type of input device. Most commonly this a mouse, but many users are not capable of using a mouse. All features of your site should be accessible via mouse, keyboard, head wand, blow tube, etc. For example, javascript that is fired by an onmouseover event or using :hover on links without also including :focus (and :active for IE6) is useless to those that aren't able to use a mouse. 4) Dyslexic clients. Other than concise and precise English, what should we do? Not just dyslexia, but some common problems for those with any sort of reading/cognitive disorder: Animated gifs, Flash, anything with movement that draws the eye away from what the user is trying to focus on; Scrolling text/marquees; Justified text, text with too much letter or word spacing. There's an article I came across recently that covers this in more detail: Designing for Dyslexics The guidlines in these links cover a lot of what you were asking. There are things in there that experts in accessibility have issues with and they are not comprehensive, but they're a pretty good starting point: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 WCAG 2.0 Guidelines - Working Draft WebAIM Section 508 Checklist ---------------------------------------- Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur ---------------------------------------- [Edit 2 times, last edit by billyboy at Dec 20, 2006 6:06:10 AM] |
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Les
Advanced Member Joined: May 9, 2004 Post Count: 640 Status: Offline |
Hi LSW You have been an inspiration to many, many, people old friend, You speak with an open mind, this forum would not be as it is now without your vast input. Keep up your Excellent Input --  A friend  Les ---------------------------------------- Tomorrow never comes, make the most of today ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Les at Dec 20, 2006 4:25:45 PM] |
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daddyalfie
Advanced Member Joined: Jul 17, 2006 Post Count: 192 Status: Offline |
That's a keeper Billyboy. Many thanks! Alfie. ---------------------------------------- If you can't sleep, try lying on the end of the bed. Then you might drop off. - Mark Twain |
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Shyster
Advanced Member Joined: Jan 18, 2007 Post Count: 108 Status: Offline |
Just when I begin to get overwhelmed...yet again...I find encouragement in a simple thread. Thanks LSW. I look forward to delving deeper into this forum. Also, you just took away my fear of asking dumb questions... ---------------------------------------- Say what you mean and mean what you say because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. ~~Dr. Suess |
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LSW
Advanced Member USA Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Post Count: 6287 Status: Offline |
LOL - we all started from 0 understanding of HTML and web design. I have had things often click even when helping... trying to explain accessibility problems to web sites... then all of a sudden "Bang!"... I see something I never thought of before! Even those of us that help more than ask for it still learn things simply as we see new problems never experienced before... or someone elses views bring out some detail overlooked. I am just frustrated because those clicks are becomming few and far between... not because I am so knowledgeable now... just because I have no real challenges anymore to push the boundries... and the others have begone answering questions before me  .---------------------------------------- Gu.aal kwsh� yak'�i it�akw ijeet wugood�k LSW-WebDesign.com ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by LSW at Jan 19, 2007 11:05:11 AM] |
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jennesmith6
Stranger United Kingdom Joined: Jul 2, 2008 Post Count: 14 Status: Offline |
I simply liked it all of them are so informative.........thanks |
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